Let’s transition into LIV Golf. How have you been viewing this whole thing?

I have yet to see anyone taking both sides to task. Some of the bigger media organisations are in bed with the PGA Tour. It looks to me like there are journalists out there who are not allowed to write anything negative about the Tour’s reaction to LIV.

If someone’s income is either directly or tangentially tied to the PGA Tour, then their opinion is jaded or compromised. In my opinion.

On the other hand, many have taken Greg Norman to task for accepting what many describe as ‘blood money’, which is ridiculous. The United States are in bed with so many different countries with dreadful human rights issues. It’s a joke.

Then again, Greg says that LIV Golf is going to be profitable. Show me how. Tell me. What are your plans? What is your one-three-five-year game plan? They must have one. But we never hear what it is. All we get is Greg saying that he can do it without actually showing us how. So, both sides in this deal deserve to be attacked. 

Kostis with his coaching hat on, looking over the short game of Paul Casey at the 2009 Open Championship. PHOTO: Getty Images.

How do you think the argument over ranking points is going to play out?

The only good thing about being my age – 75 – is that I can remember how the rankings came to be back in the early 1980s. A friend of mine was head of Sony in America. Mark McCormack’s International Management Group came to him and asked Sony to sponsor the world golf rankings.

"Along the way, the PGA Tour did not invest in their product. In terms of television, it has actually gotten worse. In order for the TV companies to pay the ever-increasing rights-fees, they have ads every two minutes." – Peter Kostis.

At that time, IMG basically “owned” the European Tour. They managed many of the top players. They ran many of the big events. They sold the television rights for the Tour. So, this was all about elevating the status of the European players, which is why, initially, the ranking was skewed towards Europe. It has bounced back and forth since. But today America is dominant. The PGA Tour has the rankings in its pocket.

My point is that the rankings have never been pure, or sacrosanct.

What would you say to someone like me who thinks they should be abandoned? Comparing events and players from different events is nonsensical.

There is some truth to that. The only thing that gave the rankings some degree of standing was the use of them by the majors. So, you are right. It all needs to go away.

The majors could come up with any number of ways to fill their fields. They did it before.

Sure.

Shifting gears slightly, the idea of a World Tour is hardly new.

Back in the 1950s and 1960s, Peter Thomson was advocating just such a thing. Greg Norman did the same in 1994. And now Norman again.

The PGA Tour has been steadfast in its insistence that the game doesn’t need a World Tour because it would interfere with their dominance. In fact, all the Tour has done since 1996 is ride the coat tails of Tiger Woods. They have bullied their corporate partners in television and sponsorship.

“Well, Tiger isn’t actually going to play in your event. But you still have to pay $X.”

Along the way, the PGA Tour did not invest in their product. In terms of television, it has actually gotten worse. In order for the TV companies to pay the ever-increasing rights-fees, they have ads every two minutes.

But, hang on a minute, just recently when under pressure from LIV, the PGA Tour magically found hundreds of millions of dollars they could give to the players to keep them from jumping ship.

Funny that.

The PGA Tour also portrays itself as this pinnacle of competition. “We’re pure. We have a 36-hole cut.” But now they are going to have 20-events where players can qualify through their popularity? Come on. What has that got to do with competition?

When it appeared, what did you first think?

‘Here we go again.’ A few years ago, I had dinner in Ponte Vedra. There were three of us at the table and between us we had ten Open Championships. It was Tom Watson, Peter Thomson and me. Five, five and zero.

We talked about a lot of stuff, but Peter spoke of the World Tour he had suggested eons ago. Norman did the same in ’94, but the tour rebuffed his and took his idea when they created the World Golf Championships. Now he’s back, with funding from what many people feel is a questionable source.

Peter Thomson first proposed a World Tour decades ago. PHOTO: Getty Images.

How do you deal with that issue?

There is no country in the world that is free from human rights abuses. It is only to what degree. The journalists who are really angry at the Saudi money are angry because it was a journalist who was killed. Which was, no question, horrific. But what goes on in China is also horrific. There is inhumanity to man almost everywhere.

I try to stay out of that. I’m not going to be hypocritical. I hate selective hypocrisy.

Some will argue this is an opportunity to effect change in Saudi Arabia.

It may very well. I don’t know that it will happen though. I don’t know that it has happened in China.

The Chinese government clearly doesn’t care what people think of them and their human rights atrocities. The Russians are the same. The whole world is intertwined with abuses on some level. So, who decides where the line is that you cannot cross?

In this case, I’m thinking that we have someone willing to put billions of dollars into golf. In the long-run that might do golf some good.

But the PGA Tour turned up its nose at money from Saudi Arabia. Do you think Greg Norman, with his history, is the right man to be approaching the PGA Tour?

"Phil (Mickelson) has always been full of himself. But he’s not an idiot. In some respects, he’s not the smartest guy in the room." – Peter Kostis.

He is, no question, a lightning rod. I have no way of knowing this, but I’m not sure he was even the first person the Saudis approached.

Greg is Greg. We know of his past and his opinions. So yes, he is a lightning rod. So is the source of the money.

But it baffles me that the PGA Tour Commissioner doesn’t take the initial phone call or the meeting. He has an obligation to have that conversation. You might very well say ‘thanks but no thanks,’ but you have to listen.

PGA Tour Commissioner, Jay Monahan. PHOTO: Getty Images.

Refusing to even listen does seem irresponsible.

He is supposed to be the Commissioner for the players, not of the players. So yes, it was a dereliction of duty for him to do what he did. His stubbornness now, along with Greg’s stubborn streak, is going to make this really difficult to resolve.

Will any resolution have to be preceded by the departure of both men?

That I don’t know. But it is going to get ugly when the lawsuits and the depositions take place. All the skeletons in a lot of closets will be revealed. It will get even nastier than it is now. I don’t like that.

What did you make of Phil Mickelson’s role in this? And how do you feel about how he has been treated subsequently?

Phil (pictured right) has always been full of himself. But he’s not an idiot. In some respects, he’s not the smartest guy in the room. He’s had issues, gambling being just one of those.

I go back to the Ryder Cup at Gleneagles when he threw Tom Watson under the bus at the post-match press conference. But look what happened after that. You can argue that the way he went about it was completely wrong. But he was completely right in what he was arguing. The players had no say in what was going on. Now they are and the Americans are doing better in the Ryder Cup.

The same is true about what Phil said about LIV Golf and the Saudis. But the players have been arguing for change on the PGA Tour for 30 years. And there has been nothing but deafening silence in response. Now the players are getting a lot of what they want. Phil maybe went about it the wrong way, but look what has happened. All of a sudden, the PGA Tour finds hundreds of millions of dollars that previously weren’t available. Really?

So, the attacks on Phil have been completely over the top. Way over. All the good he has done has been forgotten. No one has signed more autographs than he has. Now all of a sudden, he’s a dirt-bag?

That is a big part of my issue with this whole thing. As I said, the PGA Tour has everyone in its pocket. Because those people are tied to the financial success of the PGA Tour. That means journalists. That means television networks. That means magazines. That means everyone who is directly or tangentially connected to the PGA Tour is not going to be objective in their commentary.

What do you think the PGA Tour could and should have done with the Saudi money?

First off, more than half of the PGA Tour’s sponsors have business dealings with Saudi Arabia. I believe that is correct. So, you can’t claim to be morally pure when you are taking money from companies who work with the Saudis.

I find it really funny that the Royal Bank of Canada dropped Dustin Johnson as soon as he signed with LIV. RBC is part of the IPO of Aramco, which is the largest oil company in the world. Talk about being hypocritical.

Anyway, to answer your question, there are a multitude of ways this could have been done. They could have opened up a subsidiary of the PGA Tour that is elite.

LIV Golf CEO Greg Norman with prized player and fellow Queenslander, Cam Smith. PHOTO: Getty Images.

So, you don’t think that some of the things we’ve seen the PGA Tour do in the last few months would have happened without LIV Golf appearing?

Nope. The PGA Tour wasn’t going to ever change unless it was absolutely forced to do so. That’s my opinion.

How would you characterise your reaction to what they have done?

Let’s just say that, on a scale of one to ten, on honesty and believability, the hierarchy of the PGA Tour don’t come close to 50 percent. I don’t trust them and I don’t believe them.

Are you being too cynical?

I would concede that to an extent. But I’ve watched them for 30 years and I fully admit that, when I worked for CBS, I couldn’t say what I wanted to say. I tried to push it as much as I could. I tried to be as honest as I could but there were times, I had to bite my tongue because I didn’t want to lose my job. That has been amped up even more over the last few years.

There’s a line between cynicism and being free to say what you really think.

What do you say to players like Lee Westwood when it comes to LIV Golf. It’s easy to see why, at his age and stage of career, he took the money? But isn’t it harder to see why Cam Smith would do the same?

Lee is probably not going to qualify for many majors at his age. Actually, to me the winners in this whole thing are the four majors. They hold all the cards now.

Cam Smith, having won the Open, is exempt for all of the majors for at least the next three years. In the back of his mind, he might be thinking this will all get resolved in the next few years and so he won’t lose anything. He’s in the majors.

Those guys have both made their decisions with regard to money, but also with one eye on their future participation in majors. A youngster who is exempt – and I don’t think the majors will take those away – is in a different place from an older guy who probably isn’t going to play in many more anyway.